Mark J joins us on the phone to debut here on the Kiss & Tell podcast.
Mark J is an expert at helping men overcome their issues with approaching women, I have worked alongside Mark throughout my time in this industry to be able to see first hand the life changing changes he has been able to make with students.
Predominately choosing to meet women in the day, Mark is a self confessed day gamer and openly shares a few of his stories with us here on the Kiss & Tell.
If you would like to become one of Mark J’s students then feel free to contact me through the email at the bottom of the page.
Topics covered:
- Importance of giving
- What to do when a woman send you signals
- 3 steps to help overcome your approach anxiety
- Restructuring your thoughts towards anxiety
- Mark J’s pre frame technique
- Mark J’s Kiss & Tell
Johnny: Hello, Mark!
Mark: Hey how you doing?
J: I’m very well, I thought I’d just give you a quick call, wanted to invite you on to the show and have a little bit of a talk.
M: Sounds good, sounds good, ask away.
J: Well why don’t you start off first by introducing yourself, Mark. I mean we’ve been working together, what is it? About three years now. We met on possibly the first Kezia noble bootcamp.
M: Yeah I think the first one was back in Brighton it was a long time ago. Not the recent Brighton one, this was about three or four years ago now. That was the first time we came into contact and then you came to work as an instructor not long after that I think.
J: That’s right, yeah. First ever bootcamp, that was pretty epic. It was one for the diary man.
M: Yeah we weren’t quite sure what to expect but it just turned out to be enormous. A great number of guys, everyone went totally for it. Everybody got results, everybody had a great time.
J: And they’ve only got better as well. Like, that was the first ever one there, but not only I got to work with you guys but everyone got to work with each other. And I worked as a team to help craft some beautiful results there.
M: Each month it gets better and better. The team knows how to work with each other, and if you get a student that you’re working with that you can tell very quickly might work better working with somebody, you make sure they get the time with them and it seems to work very well. In the same thing as the residentials, the team have got better and better at doing it cos we’ve worked with so many people now I think.
J: That’s what people fail to realise I think is that we actually get better over time as we’re training yourself. We’re not gods at the end of the day. You think, yeah I’ve actually bettered my skills as a trainer. I’ve bettered my game by continually working with people and sharing my experiences.
M: If you weren’t getting better it would mean you’re just doing the same thing year after year, which is pointless, you could get the same from a book. You’re evolving, and it’s the same with everything. You’re drilling what you’ve been doing for years and coming up with new things, and you have to justify them, you can’t just come up with something and tell it to somebody. It’s gotta be tested, you gotta make sure it works in the field, and it doesn’t always work. That’s the scary thing for us instructors I think. I don’t know if you agree, that when you’re testing something out for a first time and there students there, you think oh god this has gotta go right, but sometimes it doesn’t and that’s alright. I think instilling that in to a student, it doesn’t have to go fantastically every time, it doesn’t matter, is in my humble opinion a very important point for game. Losing all perspective on agenda and results and just worrying about having fun with it.
J: I think it’s important for students to see that, like you know no one has 100% closing rate, I always say that. So for them to see us find something out new first hand and to see how we deal with something that doesn’t go completely our way, it’s also a bit of a learning curve as well and a bit of a wake-up call.
M: Yeah some students work in different ways, some want to see immediate results from you and it’s like of course it will happen at some point but the difference between some students and instructors as were not affected at all by what they perceive as negative, cos you change your perception. It’s not bad or good, just bad or seen as bad, or good and fun, or good and funny. Something like that. Of course these things aren’t gonna work. Any instructor that’s gonna tell you they can get results from anyone you want to in a street or in a club is lying to you. Like you said, it’s just maximising any situation you get and having fun with it and results are just a by-product of that.
J: Exactly, the key thing is to humour yourself, if you’re going out learning about this stuff, you know, always do it to humour yourself.
M: I think the two main things for me are, particularly cos I specialise in day game over the last few years and approach anxiety, is altruism I think. It’s the most important one. Other than self-amusement and having fun, for night game particularly. It’s got to be fun cos otherwise it’s a bit pointless. But during the day I think that altruism is the most important thing you can use in your arsenal. For those that don’t know what it means, it’s doing things just for the good of other people. To make other people happy with no agenda for yourself.
J: Yeah so continually lifting people up.
M: Giving people value. Ali on our team will always say it’s like taking money out of the bank or putting it in the bank. So giving people value always and not expecting results or expecting anything back from them. Doing it cos you want to and that’s all.
J: Exactly, it has a snowball effect, that one.
M: Absolutely, that’s why I think if people are struggling, sometimes you can do things altruistically that aren’t really to do with game, but they just get you in the right state of mind. For example, it could be something as simple as buying a flower and giving it to an old lady.
J: Have you done that lately mark?
M: I have done actually, and I’ve done it to a student. Or it can be buying a cup of coffee and giving it to a homeless guy. Point being, sometimes you have to get your head out of head mode, bizarrely. It sounds really counter intuitive to do things that aren’t to do with game or pick up.
J: That’s something you’ve never shared with me before is you actually make a deal of that, you take the students out, you say, okay today were gonna lift some people up, were gonna buy a cup of coffee, a hotdog.
M: It doesn’t always usually work that way, I don’t want people going out spending lots of money on lots of cups of coffee. Bizarrely doing these kinds of things is an education in agenda. Try this out everybody listening to this, go out and buy yourself a cup of coffee and try to give it to somebody. See how fucking difficult it is. Out of the kindness of your heart on a cold day, try giving somebody a cup of coffee. It is more difficult than you think. The natural reaction to people is that you’ve done something to it, that you’ve poisoned it or spat in it. Why would there be a reason? Why would you be giving it to someone out of the kindness of your heart? So I don’t do it with most students, it’s only the ones who are really having problems with agenda. It’s to totally remove what you’re doing. You’re simply brightening someone’s day up. When you’re used to doing that, we ramp it up a bit and we brighten someone’s day in a much more game way. So it could be a compliment, all the way up the ranks of seduction. But that is often a good start for people. It gets them to stop thinking about stuff.
J: You are an expert in helping people who are suffering from making that first approach. The whole approach anxiety thing. So for someone who’s looking to get started here. Let’s paint a picture. We’ve all been there. So you see the girl walking down the street, maybe in the shopping mall, or in the club, and then you just walk past and you do nothing about it. You have that moment of eye contact, you had your moment and you just walk past, the coward. That horrible, horrible moment. What sort of tips can you give to guys out there now that currently in that position that we once were.
M: Well firstly to anyone who is feeling like that, don’t feel like you’re abnormal even if it’s crippling fear, because we’ve all been there. I’ve been there. I’ve been sitting on train platforms next to a beautiful girl, wanted to say something, I had real intention. I’ll say this real clever thing I read in the game or this or that and then she’ll say this back, and I could say this that or the other, and then she gets on the train. I’m sitting there disappointed, and I’m thinking if I had just turned my head and said hi, it would have been better than all the things I was thinking of, cos the result was nothing. And that really got me on the path to just doing something. J: That moment is there, all you have to do is just simply say, hey. She understands it. And would you agree with me mark that girls or women or so frustrated with men not identifying the signals.
M: Yeah this whole men are from Venus, women are from Mars, I probably got that the wrong way round, is so true here. They’re from different planets in that book or whatever. It’s so true cos the signals, of both genders, think they’re sending and receiving, and they’re totally not, it’s so frustrating. Women think they’re sending these amazing signals, then men are waiting for signals that don’t ever get sent. J: Let’s look at why women aren’t actually approaching, and it is because of society. M: It is tradition, and I think even the most sexually predatory, confident woman will still wait cos it’s the done thing. It’s dramatic. It’s in movies. It’s in TV shows. And that’s just the way seduction goes, that we are the ones who must approach. And knowing that can take forever. And that’s what I mean, I think men are waiting for these signals that don’t happen in real life,. They’re waiting for these ridiculous hair flicks and twisting hair round your finger and licking your lips and all these sorts of things that they see in these romantic movies but it doesn’t ever happen in real life. They’re waiting to literally be told to come over.
J: So just to make that clear for people listening, when a woman’s giving you indicators, what would those indicators be Mark, obviously we have the eye contact there.
M: Even that in itself is a difficult one to ascertain until you’ve been in the field and you’ve seen it. Cos it’s not the eye contact you think. It’s not the long thirty second eye contact, well sometimes it is, but nine times out of ten it’s a fraction longer than usual. And when you’re calibrated you can see that it was longer than it should have been. But otherwise you’re waiting for someone to look at you four, five times, by which time most women will stop sending those signals cos they start thinking, I’ve looked at him, I’ve sent him these signals twice now, and he still hasn’t got it. But that’s cos he’s waiting for these ridiculous over the top signals that don’t come. Proximity they miss out on. They think it’s not an indicator but of course it is. People’s space.
J: As I said earlier, I was that guy that walked past and I was getting the exchange of eye contact so I was thinking, yeah, it’s on, but I was just walking past and not doing anything.
M: Do you know what though? That, that example you’ve just given is really good because that is something you can use. Disappointment. I know it’s not a great feeling but if you go back to that, cos you’ll know cos we’ve taught together, that I teach positivity, cos we all like positivity, in terms of game. It’s great, and you need it as much as possible. However, I do think the not wanting to fail, not wanting to be beaten, is very useful as well. So that feeling of when you wanted to talk to her but didn’t, when you go back to it and remember it, that is not being beaten. Let it play over in your mind when you see the next girl. That anger, that disappointment that you felt, let it play over your mind and push you on to the next one.
J: Yeah cos every time I had that feeling, I got mixed feelings. I was like okay I feel like a coward but then also I thought well actually there’s only so long I can go on feeling like this. I will genuinely do something about this. And eventually it came to that moment again where I see her, I like what I see, we’re exchanging eye contact, we’re smiling. I’m thinking, Johnny, if you don’t do anything about this right now you’re a punk. So I simply went up and said, hey, it’s Johnny. And you know what, that girl became part of my life for two years after that.
M: Just because you took action. I remember the first one I ever did of my own volition, with no friends or wingman or help or anything like that, was on the tube. Which was difficult on the underground. It’s always doable but it’s difficult. And sitting opposite me is a beautiful girl. And I’m thinking don’t be a pussy. You’ve gotta talk yourself into it on your first one on your own, definitely. It’s the one you’re gonna remember. You didn’t need any help, you just did it. And I gave myself an out, a caveat. You know, if she gets off at my stop, I’ll do it. If not, I won’t, but if she gets off at my stop, I’ll do it. And we started coming up to waterloo, and as we we’re coming up to waterloo I could see her shuffling her bag and I’m thinking, oh no, shit, oh god, she’s getting off. I’ve gotta do it. And you let that feeling build up in you. Cos you think, I can’t be a pussy now. I can’t be. Cos I gave myself an out and it’s still happening. I’ve got to do it now. So I went after her on the platform, waited till it was a bit quieter and there weren’t as many people, and I opened her and it went really well. But you’ve got to just take action. And I’m sure there are many people out there who want to take action but it’s still holding them back. Cos let’s not forget, approach anxiety is chemical, its adrenaline, it needs to be there. It never truly goes away. As we have taught together in a lot of bootcamps it’s not about getting rid of it, it’s about changing it to something like approach energy or approach excitement.
J: A lot of words have negative connotations to them and we craft feelings to those words we’re gonna use. So if we have that feeling and we’ve used a negative word to describe it, it can only be negative behaviour.
M: Exactly, and sometimes just accepting that it’s gonna be there, is quite comforting. You know it’s not like, I’ve done 20 sets today, why am I still feeling like this? You’re always gonna feel it, so get used to it. You know you pull your hand off a hot stove, which is natural. Its self-protection. You’d be weird if it wasn’t there. It’s the same with this, you’re always gonna get those butterflies, whether those butterflies are in front of you, holding you back, or behind you pushing you forward. That’s the only difference.
J: Yeah I think what you’ve just said hit the nail on the head there because I was just about to say, as you do get the repetition going in opening up the set and invest in quite some years in doing this, what change do you have? And it’s what you’ve just said, instead of pushing you back it moves you forward. You just start associating that feeling with a positive one and it just pushes you forwards and pushes you into set.
M: Yeah if you’re new out there, we all feel it. Specially if you haven’t opened a set for a few weeks or a few months if you’ve been away or working or whatever. If you stop someone at Oxford Street you’re gonna get that feeling. The difference is if the butterflies are behind you pushing you forwards, your legs are gonna start moving. And that’s a good thing to do is just get your legs moving. Once you get there, your social intelligence will kick in. And do you know what? If it doesn’t kick in, it’ll be a funny story you’ll learn something. You’ll improve, and when you do it again it’ll kick in slowly over time.
J: That’s it. It doesn’t matter if you get her number. It doesn’t matter if she tells you to fuck off. You will feel a hundred times better approaching her than if you had just walked past thinking you’re a coward. Life is about growing and if you move forward and open your set that you wouldn’t normally do you beat yourself.
M: That’s it, absolutely 100% agree with you. In terms of things people can do to get on top of approach anxiety, there are three things you can do that you can get out there and use today. One practical, one mental, one emotional. The practical one is tasks, which means really concentrating on the task at hand because sometimes when you’re thinking too far ahead, everybody seems like too hard a target. So in that sense what you have to do is dehumanise everybody. I know that might feel robotic or mechanical, but to be honest if you’re feeling this way you got to do what you got to do to get past it cos everything after that is much more fun. So you can see people like boxing targets. If you were a boxer, the final match is a mixture of a hundred different things; jabs, crosses, footwork, it’s a million different things. But if you wanted to work on your combinations you would spar with a partner, you’d go on a bag for an hour. Very, very specific. And if one thing is getting on top of you, in this instance opening, you do nothing else. Say to yourself, I’m not gonna get any further, I am not going to get any numbers today, I do not care about getting numbers today. I am just gonna open twenty people. And you just go on that opening bag or that transitioning bag, boom, boom, boom and you knock them out. It’s just a task. I’m not even gonna ask these people’s names, I don’t care. I’m just gonna do and I’m just gonna do this thing. I know it’s a bit practical and a bit robotic. But that’s one way of doing it, just getting used to the task when you’re used to the task, then you can bring back all the emotion in to it. So that’s one way. The emotional way brings back a little bit what we were talking about before, which is altruism. Because the main reason for approach anxiety or why it can get in the way, is agenda. Always, always agenda. You’re thinking too far ahead, you want something from this person before you’ve even met them, which is ridiculous isn’t it? So that’s where your altruism comes in, your task for the day. And I used to teach no agenda, but I worked out quite quickly that doesn’t work because I don’t think you can do anything without an agenda. Human beings attach agenda to everything. Giving the coffee example explains that. So the agenda is to brighten this person’s day. No more thinking at all than that. As soon as you start thinking about things, thinking about keynotes, thinking about closing, anything like that, you stop. Come back to the beginning. Altruism. Brighten this person’s day. Now how am I gonna brighten that persons day? It might be something quite simple like smiling at someone, it might be a practical non game one like I mentioned before or it might be giving someone a compliment. Cos you can’t get rejected from that. Cos the problem people have is rejection in day game. You know, I’m gonna be rejected cos I don’t know this person. One way of dealing with that, seeing rejection as an opportunity to showcase strength, which is more applicable for more night game stuff that you guys teach, is to not do things that you can be rejected from. You cannot be rejected from brightening someone’s day. So if you achieve that, anything else that happens after that is fine, but that’s the only mission when you go in. So that’s the second one. The third one is kind of the mental angle, if you pardon the pun. People will say you can’t prepare. Every introduction is gonna be different. And that is partly true. However, I don’t need preparation in terms of I say this then you say this, cos in that case you’d be right. What I mean by preparation is pre-frame. Now I teach pre-frame slightly different to other people. I teach pre-frame as a positive past present and future of where you are, right now, as a back-up to what the truth might be. Say if you’re in Covent Garden during the day, why are you there? What’s happened just before, this morning, right now, and this evening. Really, really positive. Cos if you prepare that in your mind, if someone comes back to you with, oh what you up to today, you won’t be frazzled. Cos it happens all the time.
J: Ah I see. Yeah.
M: And also it’s setting you up for a conversation. Cos that’s another problem people have, is getting to a conversation, getting the transition. This is how I would prepare to do it. When you’ve got that version, what happened to you this morning, what you’re doing now, what you’re doing later you then pepper it, or make sure everything in that day has things it can be commented on. It can be interesting, exciting, whatever. So if someone asks you a simple part of it, you know, where are you off to now? Rather than just saying, I’m just off shopping.
J: Yeah, I really like that.
M: Sometimes you’re not gonna get much from someone. You must have been in conversation with someone and that might be the only interaction you get from them, is what you up to, and you waste that, totally squander that opportunity. If you say you’re just gonna have a bit of a wander around, well that’s your fault. You’ve wasted that. And I know sometimes this might seem a little bit disingenuous – you’re going there tomorrow instead of today – but for the sake of that, you get yourself into a very interesting conversation. And why not? Why not talk about things you know about the most? If you’re an expert at photography, make sure it’s something to do with photography in your pre-frame. If its music, something to do with music in your pre-frame. You know, by complete ‘accident’ in inverted commas, these subjects come up that you’re passionate about so you’re ready. So that’s what I mean by preparation. You’re just arming yourself a little bit. So if something comes up, you’ll be able to get yourself into a conversation rather than thinking, I’m gonna have to wing this every time. And when you’re winging it every time, until you’re experienced, these things aren’t gonna come up. You’re gonna have endless conversations about the weather, or traffic or what’s going on around you until you luck out and something happens to come up that you know about. So take control. That’s the third one I think. So that’s the three ones; tasks, concentrating on very specific tasks; altruism, to get rid of your agenda, to brighten someone’s day; and pre-frame. I’m giving away my best tricks here Johnny. You’ll have to pay for this stuff, you know. J: They don’t need to listen to your podcast. M: Yeah I’m done, they just need to listen to this podcast and I’m done. J: Okay, well this is the Kiss and Tell Podcast. You know what you’re gonna have to do right now. M: Ah, I thought it was a funny name for a podcast. Oh okay.
J: So basically, what sort of pick-ups can you share with us, that you’ve been the most proud of, or most interesting. I don’t know, it’s up to you.
M: Okay, there’s one from quite a while ago I think is the one. It wasn’t the most spectacular or leading to a long term relationship. What it was, firstly, it was my first 6 months of being an instructor. It cemented that I knew what I was doing. Secondly, it was dramatic. And from hearing your last podcast I totally agree cos when you do get an interaction that just kind of becomes dramatic there’s something a bit special about it. So that’s the one that sticks out. It was in Trafalgar Square. For those who are listening who aren’t from London, Trafalgar Square is next to Leicester Square. It’s a very touristy area but it’s nice. It’s got those two big fountains and it’s a very nice area. And it was late afternoon, just in the evening, and it was absolutely pouring with rain. Tipping down with rain. Horrible, horrible day.
J: Sounds romantic.
M: But that’s the thing. I’m weird like that. I really like the rain, I think it is really dramatic. I would rather a rainy, horrible day, if you’re inside or got an umbrella, than bright sunshine. I thought it was fine, but that’s just for me. But also, it’s a challenge as well. Because when the weather is bad, it is more difficult cos people hide away. They don’t wanna be outside. So I thought right, let’s go for it. So, Trafalgar Square, almost nobody around. A few people kind of dotted around cos the weather’s horrible. I see this one girl with an umbrella, so she’s not like cowering or anything, standing next to one of the fountains. So I walk over. And at this point cos I also work as an extra, I’m also thinking of films going through my head. And I’m trying to bring the drama in to it straight away. So I went against all my normal rules, and I thought, I’m gonna try and start this really quiet, really relaxed, really controlled, and not say anything at all. Cos I’m gonna ruin it if I do. So I went up very slowly just next to her with my umbrella as well. Smiled at her, she smiled back. And I swear we didn’t say anything for thirty seconds, which is a long, goddamn time when you’re in that kind of situation. But it was such a great start. And then to continue from there, something very simple. And this is why I like this one is because I used something I tell my students. I don’t tell people to use things and then not use them myself. And sometimes, I don’t know if you agree but the most simple stuff is the best. You don’t have to think of something really, extremely fancy, and it was something akin to, you know, I’m gonna kick myself if I don’t tell you this. And I don’t remember my exact compliment. But she smiled. And it was very slow, really taking my time. And because it’s raining, and I like that, that’s the first thing that came into my mind. I said you know, I know it’s strange but I kind of like the rain. I find it really dramatic. But you know, I would never usually go with weather either, which you agree. This is why it was special, because one of the things I teach is observation. When something isn’t going well, observation is key. Most of the time, it’ll get you out of it. I’ve been in set with students and they’re really struggling with a girl, and I just make one observation and it gets them back on track with this girl. It might be something about her clothes or how she’s standing, or whatever it might be. And suddenly you’re back on to an even kilter. And I noticed a DVD sticking out of her back. And all of a sudden it went film noir. It was beautiful. And you won’t believe me that she said this but I swear to god its true, but we were talking about the rain and how dramatic it is, some people like thunderstorms and all that kind of stuff, and you know how the sound of rain is not dramatic but it’s nice isn’t it, when you hear it drumming on the ceiling or whatever. And she comes up with this line. Tell me if you recognise it. She said, all those moments will be lost in time, like tears in the rain. Do you know what that’s from?
J: No, what is that from?
M: It’s from a film called Blade Runner. It’s a very iconic quote and she had no idea that I was gonna know it but straight away I came back with, that’s from thingy. And from then on, it was a piece of cake because that’s my passion in life, is films. So straight away we can connect on a very deep level about this subject and a ton of different ways. She was a photography student which I found really interesting cos I like to see the ways in which people see the world. It was very interesting, and that’s the reason she came out to places like this in the rain cos it is very dramatic, the way the square was looking today was beautiful. As was she. And it continued like that, nice and slow, and then we went straight for dinner. Straight down the road, this Italian place.
J: You’re saying like, you know, just by being observational.
M: Absolutely.
J: This whole movie hook.
M: It can be anything. I remember these things always seem to happen in Trafalgar Square to me. One of my first ones ever when I was training. A girl sitting on the stairs, reading Memoirs of a Geisha. And I had just come back from Japan. And you’re in.
J: It’s just like Hadassa, you are a big Japanese geek.
M: Absolutely, I don’t deny it at all. But when you get something like that, you’re wasting an opportunity if you just go in and do something generic. Observations take you further. It’s a brilliant skill, so when you sit at the coffee shop, having a coffee and just thinking of nothing, practice that. Practice observing about people and where could it lead you to. The reason I remember that one so clearly is cos I thought it was going to be difficult. Not that you don’t want things to go well. I thought in my instructing career that this was gonna be a tough one. I’d never one in that kind of condition before. And the fact that it went so smoothly, easily, and lead to an instant dinner straight afterwards, was probably the most memorable one I’ve had. It’s one you can tell students. You know, you can’t do it in the rain, yeah you can, trust me. But that’s the one I remember very well. J: That is very Adam and Eve in a way, taking a scene from that. Yeah I mean, Mark, you’ve been fantastic to work alongside with. You’ve been in it what it is? Three and a half years now, it’s insane. M: I think, yeah, three years coming up to four. Dunno why. And when you go over this with students a lot…
J: I went over this the other day, we’ve taught over 7,000 now.
M: 7,000? That is amazing. And it’s great when you get emails from people and they’re doing really well. We see people in every single situation in life, but yeah it’s been fantastic and I’ve learnt a lot while I’ve been on it as well. I don’t specialise in everything. There are guys whose game in certain situations is far better than mine. J: Everyone has a unique angle of teaching and an area of focus and we can all learn off each other. That’s why I enjoy having these conversations with you and with the other guys cos we’re all constantly sharing ideas and we all kind of grow. They say you are the average of five social people around you. If you go through your life with that rule then you will become exceptional at whatever you choose to be. M: Absolutely right. Absolutely right. You can bring it all down to taking action. It’s the obvious one. Not to bring out the actor in me, in famous Hamlet, I think it is, is to lose the name of action. That’s what most of that play is about, is that everybody talks. And that’s the point being made in that play, is it’s always talk. And talk loses the name of action. Sometimes you just need to do something. Just getting your legs in gear, walking towards somebody, looking them straight in their eye with that great big smile, which I think is everybody’s greatest weapon. And saying hi. Will do you a lot of favours.
J: Alright mark, well that’s all we’ve got time for tonight, but it’s been beautiful speaking to you as always.
M: And to you sir, it’s been fantastic, thanks so much for having me on the Kiss and Tell Podcast.
J: Alright and if you guys want to get training from Mark you can find him on the seven day programme over on www.kezia-noble.com. If you shoot me over an email I might be able to offer you a discount if you quote Kiss and Tell Podcast in the subject line. Okay, alright, that’s goodbye from me, and that’s goodbye from Mark.
M: Goodbye everybody listening, hope to work with you soon or see you in the field. Thanks very much.
J: Alright, catch you later mate.
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